The strange thing about writing a recap of a chapter or story is that action sequences can result in a long recap but not necessarily a long analysis. Thus, it’s a slightly slower week in Reading The Wheel of Time, but it is not slow for Rand. Reuniting with Thom doesn’t go quite as he had hoped, he gets to see the inside of the secret Illuminator chapter house, and he’s chased by Trollocs again. Oh, I almost forgot the worst part: Selene shows up again. There were a lot of little moments to be enjoyed in this section, however. I was interested to see that Thom has found a companion, and there are some lovely and moving bits with Loial. I also googled what a swordbreaker is—I believe that the weapon has been mentioned as being carried by the Sheinarans before, but when Hurin was cleaning his at the end of Chapter 27 I finally stopped and looked it up. Apparently it’s a sturdy dagger set with notches almost like a comb, which can catch a descending sword and twist the weapon from the weilder’s hand, or even break the blade. So there’s a cool piece of medieval trivia for those who, like me, enjoy learning that kind of thing but aren’t knowledgable enough to have heard of a swordbreaker before now.
This is what is so cool about being a writer—you get to learn so much about so many different subjects.
Rand rushes back to his room, so overjoyed to have found Thom alive that he actually grins at the innkeeper, and goes straight to the wardrobe to retrieve the bundle of Thom’s possessions. His abrupt arrival startles Hurin and Loial, who were in their own room, smoking. Rand fills them in, and invites Loial, to whom he has talked about Thom before, to come meet the gleeman. Hurin is happy to keep watch, since he found himself the object of too much attention and too many questions while in the common room. But Rand for once is unconcerned about what anyone thinks, and urges Loial to come with him, even though Loial is still concerned about running into other Ogier. He tells Rand that he might be in a lot of trouble when he goes home, so much so that he wonders if he wouldn’t be able to find an abandoned stedding to stay in for a while. Rand, not really listening, tells Loial that he can always stay in Emond’s Field, and bustles him out of the room, cutting off Loial’s attempt to explain why that wouldn’t be possible. Rand winks at the innkeeper on their way out of the inn.
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The Great Hunt
They have an easy time finding The Bunch of Grapes, and the innkeeper sends them up to Thom’s room, telling them that Dena will probably let them wait for Thom there. Rand knocks at the door, and a woman’s voice tells him to enter. Coming inside, they find a large room packed with chests and belongings, and a woman seated on the bed juggling. She clearly thinks they’re just delivering something, but Rand explains that they are waiting for Thom and asks if she is Dena. When she sees Loial she makes a remark about the Ogier being back, and then demands to know what they want. Rand explains that he has brought Thom’s flute and harp, and asks if they can stay and wait to talk to their friend. Dena, observing that Thom always complains about losing the best harp and flute he ever has, acquiesces, but tells them that she need to keep practicing in the meantime.
Rand asks if Dena is Thom’s apprentice, to which she replies coyly “You might say that.” She tells them that she intends be the first female gleeman, and that she will see the whole world before she is done. She says also that once they have enough money, Thom intends to take her down to Tear, and then perhaps to the Sea Folk’s islands. Rand, looking around, doesn’t feel like this is the room of someone who intends to move on soon, and, observing the flowerpot in the window and the fact that the room has only one big bed, begins to figure out what else Dena might be to Thom.
He is just suggesting that they should wait downstairs when Thom suddenly arrives, striding over to embrace and kiss Dena thoroughly before launching into a diatribe about a group of “players” and how they’re acting and backdrops can’t compare to Thom’s ability to make the audience see the scene and imagine themselves as the heroes. When she points out to him that they have company, he pauses to take Rand and Loial in, then asks her to leave them alone. He sends her off to collect some knives that were being made for her, and she leaves, a little reluctantly.
Thom remarks proudly that she will be a bard one day, telling them of her memory for the tales and skill with a harp, before remarking that he had heard while in Caemlyn that Rand was traveling in the company of an Ogier. He greets Loial cordially. Loial returns the greeting, and remarks that Dena told them that she was going to be a gleeman. But Thom brushes that off, saying that the gleeman’s life is not fit for a woman, and is barely fit for a man. He’s certain that he’ll talk her around, and that she’ll be a court bard one day. Then, getting to the business at hand, he asks for his instruments.
Rand produces them, and Thom seems a little struck by the fact that they are still wrapped in his old cloak. Rand remarks upon having earned his supper a few times with the flute, which Thom also heard about, and he’s glad that Rand didn’t touch the harp, which he says is too delicate for a shepherd’s fingers.
Rand leaned across the table toward him. “Thom, you wanted to go to Illian, to see the Great Hunt set out, and be one of the first to make new stories about it, but you couldn’t. What would you say if I told you you could still be a part of it? A big part?”
Loial stirred uneasily. “Rand, are you sure… ?” Rand waved him to silence, his eyes on Thom.
Thom glanced at the Ogier and frowned. “That would depend on what part, and how. If you’ve reason to believe one of the Hunters is coming this way…. I suppose they could have left Illian already, but he’d be weeks reaching here if he rode straight on, and why would he? Is this one of the fellows who never went to Illian? He’ll never make it into the stories without the blessing, whatever he does.”
“It doesn’t matter if the Hunt has left Illian or not.” Rand heard Loial’s breath catch. “Thom, we have the Horn of Valere.”
Thom is moved to almost uncontrollable laughter by the suggestion that that “a shepherd and a beardless Ogier” could have the Horn. He tells them all the places they might find some charlatan claiming to have or even be selling the “true” Horn, and it’s only when Rand tells him that Moiraine says it’s the Horn that Thom falls silent in surprise. He reminds Rand that he claimed Moiraine wasn’t with them and Rand reiterates that he hasn’t seen her since they left Fal Dara. He urges Thom to come with them to return the Horn to Fal Dara, knowing that Thom wanted to write new stories about the Hunt, and needing someone with his knowledge to help them navigate the world.
The gleeman pushed back his chair and went to stare out of the window. “The Horn of Valere. That means the Last Battle is coming. Who will notice? Did you see the people laughing in the streets out there? Let the grain barges stop a week, and they won’t laugh. Galldrian will think they’ve all become Aiel. The nobles all play the Game of Houses, scheming to get close to the King, scheming to gain more power than the King, scheming to pull down Galldrian and be the next King. Or Queen. They will think Tarmon Gai’don is only a ploy in the Game.” He turned away from the window. “I don’t suppose you are talking about simply riding to Shienar and handing the Horn to—who?—the King? Why Shienar? The legends all tie the Horn to Illian.”
Rand looked at Loial. The Ogier’s ears were sagging. “Shienar, because I know who to give it to, there. And there are Trollocs and Darkfriends after us.”
“Why does that not surprise me? No. I may be an old fool, but I will be an old fool in my own way. You take the glory, boy.”
Rand tries again, but Thom cuts him off with a sharp no, and Rand asks Loial to leave them alone for a bit. Loial goes downstairs, intending to investigate the dice game he saw in the common room, and Rand sits for a moment under Thom’s suspicious gaze, trying to figure out how to ask what he needs to know.
After a moment, he asks the gleeman if there are any books that have The Karaethon Cycle. Thom explains that there are plenty in the great libraries, and complains about the difficulties of translating from the Old Tongue.
…. There is one verse in the Cycle—it doesn’t scan well, translated word for word, but there’s no meaning lost—that goes like this.
“Twice and twice shall he be marked,
twice to live, and twice to die.
Once the heron, to set his path.
Twice the heron, to name him true.
Once the Dragon, for remembrance lost.
Twice the Dragon, for the price he must pay.”
He reached out and touched the herons embroidered on Rand’s high collar.
Rand reminds him that the sword, with herons on its hilt, scabbard, and blade, makes five herons, which makes Thom chuckle. But Rand is suddenly conscious of his scared palm, and turns his hand down on the table.
Thom recites another verse, about the Dragon’s blood being spilled in Shayol Ghu to free men from the Shadow, and muses about how the Aes Sedai will want to make events fit the Prophecies as closely as they can, despite the apparent contradictions in the verses. Dying in the Blasted Lands, he says, would be a high price to pay for going along with them.
Rand repeats that he is not being used, that there are no Aes Sedai with him, and Thom counters by asking why Rand would inquire about the Prophecies and why he would send Loial away before doing so. Rand explains that the Horn makes Loial nervous and that he doesn’t want to upset him. He wanted to ask if the Horn was in any of the Prophecies, seeing as how everyone thinks it will be the Dragon who wields it to summon the army of dead heroes. He surprises Thom with the information that the army will fight for whoever wields the Horn, be he Dragon or Darkfriend. But he repeats again that it doesn’t mean he will let the Aes Sedai use him.
“For a time, boy, [Thom says] I thought you were the one Moiraine wanted, and I even thought I knew why. You know, no man chooses to channel the Power. It is something that happens to him, like a disease. You cannot blame a man for falling sick, even if it might kill you, too.”
This prompts Rand to ask about Thom’s nephew, and Thom tells him how Owen held off the madness for almost three years, never touching the Power except to help his village. He admits reluctantly that there wasn’t really a choice for the Aes Sedai, the people of Owen’s village told Thom that he had been acting strange for the last year. But even if the Aes Sedai only did what they had to do, Thom can’t love them for it, and after Owen was gentled, Thom’s nephew gave up wanting to live and passed away. Thom tells Rand that, if Moiraine really has let him go, he is well out of it.
Rand asks again about Thom accompanying them to Fal Dara, realizing that he sounds a little like Selene as he urges Thom to consider what it would be like to tell of how he once held the Horn in his hands, when other gleemen could only recite stories about others’ exploits. Thom is clearly tempted, but he refuses, explaining to Rand that he has a good life in the Foregate, that for some reason Dena loves him, and—even more surprising—he finds that he loves her too.
Now, why should I leave that to go be chased by Trollocs and Darkfriends? The Horn of Valere? Oh, it is a temptation, I’ll admit, but no. No, I will not get mixed up in it again.”
He leaned over to pick up one of the wooden instrument cases, long and narrow. When he opened it, a flute lay inside, plainly made but mounted with silver. He closed it again and slid it across the table. “You might need to earn your supper again someday, boy.”
“I might at that,” Rand said. “At least we can talk. I will be in—”
The gleeman was shaking his head. “A clean break is best, boy. If you’re always coming around, even if you never mention it, I won’t be able to get the Horn out of my head. And I won’t be tangled in it. I won’t.”
But after Rand has left, Thom doesn’t find it that easy to stop thinking about the Horn, how a farmboy, of all people, could have come across it. He does his best to push the thoughts away, thinking of how Dena is too special of a talent to be abandoned, and she loves him besides.
“Old fool,” he muttered.
“Aye, an old fool,” Zera said from the door. He gave a start; he had been so absorbed in his thoughts that he had not heard the door open. He had known Zera for years, off and on in his wanderings, and she always took full advantage of the friendship to speak her mind. “An old fool who’s playing the Game of Houses again. Unless my ears are failing, that young lord has the sound of Andor on his tongue. He’s no Cairhienin, that’s for certain sure. Daes Dae’mar is dangerous enough without letting an outland lord mix you in his schemes.”
Thom is surprised, then realizes that Rand’s outfit was fancy enough to make Zera think he was a lord. He catches himself considering whether to tell Zera the truth or allow her to keep thinking what she does, and thinks about how easy it is to slip into that kind of scheming. He tells her the truth, that Rand is a shepherd from the Two Rivers, which Zera clearly doesn’t believe. She reminds him how dangerous the Game of Houses is, how it has grown even more dangerous in recent years, and when Thom denies playing, she points out that he has begin performing at the lords’ manor. She knows they will pull him into their plots as soon as they can figure out how.
Zera urges him to let go of playing the Great Game, to marry Dena and forget Daes Dae’mar. Thom thanks her wryly—privately thinking of how ridiculous it would be to marry Dena, saddling her with an old husband whose past will mar her opportunities to become a court bard—and asks to be left alone to prepare for his next performance.
Zera leaves, and Thom is left to convince himself that Rand is still no more than a shepherd. If he had been, if he had been a man who could channel the way Thom had once suspected, then Moiraine would have never let Rand walk away without gentling him first.
“He is out of it,” he said aloud, “and so am I.”
Rand and Loial make their way back through the Foregate, Rand consumed with his regrets over Thom’s refusal and the feeling that he can’t wait anymore for Ingtar to arrive, Loial confused by how Dena beat him at the dice game. Neither of them is paying much attention to the goat-horned Trolloc puppet, worked by five men, coming towards them until it is almost upon them; then, the men drop their poles and the Trolloc, not a puppet at all but real, attacks Rand.
Rand acts entirely on instinct, unsheathing his sword and cutting the Trolloc down in one smooth arc. The fake puppeteer Darkfriends look at his sword and at Loial, then turn and run.
Rand starts to tell Loial that they need to get back to the inn, lest the Darkfriends find Hurin alone, when suddenly he is grabbed from behind by a second Trolloc and lifted from the ground. One hand goes around his throat, but just as quickly it is torn away again, by Loial, who is struggling to pull the Trolloc’s arms away. He manages it after a moment, and Rand scrambles away, wanting to help Loial but not able to get near the wrestling pair with his sword. Watching them struggle, the Trolloc starting to pull its sword free despite having one of Loial’s arms around its neck, Rand realizes that the Power is the only way he can help the Ogier. He forms the void, finding saidin there, but it slips away from him as he reaches for it. Each time he touches only the taint, feeling it slide off on to him, but no matter how many times he reaches for it it slips away.
Finally, Loial throws the Trolloc against the wall so hard its neck breaks. Rand releases the void as soon as he realizes what has happened and rushes to help the Ogier.
“I never… killed before, Rand.” Loial drew a shuddering breath.
“It would have killed you if you hadn’t,” Rand told him. Anxiously, he looked at the alleys and shuttered windows and barred doors. Where there were two Trollocs, there had to be more. “I’m sorry you had to do it, Loial, but it would have killed both of us, or worse.”
“I know. But I cannot like it. Even a Trolloc.” Pointing toward the setting sun, the Ogier seized Rand’s arm. “There’s another of them.”
Rand looks, seeing another “puppet”, clearly fake now that he knows what to look for. He knows that Fain is hunting him, but the fact that he is worried about the Trollocs being seen means that they will probably be safe if they can get to a street with people in it. They hurry off, heading towards the sound of music and people, but each time they are cut off by another fake puppet until they are driven further and further away from the city and down dark streets with shuttered, quiet houses. Finally, Loial points out that there is nowhere else to go; they have been driven to the edge of the houses and are almost to the bare, empty hills outside of the Foregate. And once they are out there, the Trollocs won’t have to worry anymore about being seen.
But Rand spies a group of walled buildings on a hill, which he takes to be a lord’s manor. He suggests that perhaps they would be willing to receive an Ogier and an outland lord-the fancy heron coat must be good for something. But Loial counters his suggestion, saying that he believes it to be an Illuminators’ chapter house, to which even the King himself would probably not be admitted.
Just then, Rand hears a familiar voice and detects a familiar scent; Selene is there, asking him what trouble he’s gotten into this time.
Rand stared: Selene stepped around the corner they had just rounded, her white dress bright in the dimness. “How did you get here? What are you doing here? You have to leave immediately. Run! There are Trollocs after us.”
“So I saw.” Her voice was dry, yet cool and composed. “I came to find you, and I find you allowing Trollocs to herd you like sheep. Can the man who possesses the Horn of Valere let himself be treated so?”
“I don’t have it with me,” he snapped, “and I don’t know how it could help if I did. The dead heroes are not supposed to come back to save me from Trollocs. Selene, you have to get away. Now!” He peered around the corner.
But it’s too late for her to do so, Rand can see at least two Trollocs as well as the shadows of Darkfriends, and he decides they must try for the chapter house anyway, sneaking in if the won’t be invited. He wraps Selene in his cloak to hide the brightness of her white dress and cuts off Loial’s protest, getting them all moving. Selene tells him to seek the Oneness, that he is letting himself become flustered and that one who would be great should always be calm. Rand reminds her that he doesn’t want to be great and that the Trollocs might hear her.
When they reach the wall, Loial can look back and see the Trollocs running towards them. He starts again to warn Rand off his plan, but this time Selene cuts him off, pointing to a nearby door. She tugs it open and Rand pushes Loial inside, hushing him. They find themselves in an alley lined with plastered walls, and Rand remarks that it’d be better to get arrested by the Illuminators than caught by Trollocs. Loial interjects that this is what he’s been trying to tell Rand, that the Illuminators are so careful of their secrets that they kill intruders. Rand is of the opinion that humans are still a better bet than Trollocs though, and he apologizes to Selene for getting her into this.
But Selene is perfectly calm, and remarks that danger adds a certain something before setting off deeper into the compound. Hidden, they overhear two Illuminators discussing plans for a display, and they can see long racks of tubes and shapes, the fireworks.
All the fireworks [Rand] had ever seen could be held in one hand, and that was as much as he knew, except that they burst with a great roar, or whizzed along the ground in spirals of sparks, or sometimes shot into the air. They always came with warnings from the Illuminators that opening one could cause it to go off. In any case, fireworks were too expensive for the Village Council to have allowed anybody unskilled to open one. He could well remember the time when Mat had tried to do just that; it was nearly a week before anyone but Mat’s own mother would speak to him. The only thing that Rand found familiar at all was the cords—the fuses. That, he knew, was where you set the fire.
Wanting to be farther away from the unlocked door they came in through, Rand leads the group down between the racks of fireworks, which soon proves a questionable decision, as the wooden racks and their contents rattle at the slightest brush, and Loial can barely fit between them. Meanwhile, Selene does not bump anything, but neither does she seem at all concerned, not even bothering to keep Rand’s cloak closed to hide the white of her dress from anyone who happened to look out a window. They are almost to the end of the racks and to the houses and alleyways beyond, when Loail knocks a rack of sticks which begin to smoulder and topple over onto a wick for one of the tubes. Rand hisses for them to get behind the nearby low wall, and bears Selene to the ground behind it.
For a moment they lie there, and then there is a hollow thump. Rand lifts his head to see the end of the tube smoking faintly—Selene, angrily, punches him in the ribs and wriggles free—and then suddenly the sky is illuminated by the giant explosion of a red and white flower. People come, running and shouting.
He pressed Loial and Selene back against the wall, hoping they looked like just another shadow. “Be still and be silent,” he whispered. “It’s our only hope.”
“Sometimes,” Selene said quietly, “if you are very still, no one can see you at all.” She did not sound the least bit worried.
They stay still, watching and listening as the two Illuminators they overheard before return, he one upbraiding the other for his carelessness in readying the display, despite his protests that everything had been set up perfectly. Despite the fact that he needs only to turn his head to see them, the man cleans up and leaves without ever noticing the trio hiding in the shadows.
Rand breathes out that the can’t expect anymore luck like that tonight, shushing Selene when she retorts that great men make their own luck.But Loial interrupts that they are going to need more luck after all—he can see three Trolloc peering out of the shadows from the direction they came.
“So,” Selene said quietly. “It becomes a trap. These people may kill you if they take you. The Trollocs surely will. But perhaps you can slay the Trollocs too quickly for them to make any outcry. Perhaps you can stop the people from killing you to preserve their little secrets. You may not want greatness, but it will take a great man to do these things.”
“You don’t have to sound happy about it,” Rand said. He tried to stop thinking about how she smelled, how she felt, and the void almost surrounded him. He shook it away.
Rand looks around, trying to make a plan as Selene continues, angrily, that his greatness will make her happy, and that perhaps she should leave him for a while; perhaps he deserves to die, if he won’t take greatness while it’s in his grasp.
Rand does his best to ignore her, instructing Loial to take Selene down a nearby alley. If there is a door there, they can get out, and if there isn’t, Loial can lift Selene up so she can climb over the wall. Loial agrees, but points out that the Trollocs will come after them if they move, and Rand answers that he will deal with the Trollocs.
Rand thinks that with the void, he just might be able to defeat all three, but the thought of saidin being there dissuades him from summoning it as Loial and Selene move towards the alley. The Trollocs spot them instantly, but they hesitate, because there is a woman in an upstairs window who will see them if they move. Loial calls back that there is a door, and at that the Trollocs finally move, stepping into the light and drawing a scream from the woman in the window.
Rand moves at once, knowing that he has to stop the Trollocs or they will all be run down, and snatches up one of the sticks Loial knocked over earlier, which is still smouldering. He levels one of the hollow tubes at the Trollocs and lights the fuse; immediately there is the same hollow thump and Rand is thrown backwards as there is a heavy explosion of sound and light. When he can get up again, shaken and with ringing ears, he finds half the racks knocked down and the corner of the building where the Trollocs were completely blown away, nothing but smouldering and burning timber remaining. He staggers after Loial and Selene as the Illuminators come running to put the fire out.
Rand stumbles over his own cloak in the alley and snatches it up without stopping. He finds Loial at the end of the alley beside an open door, but the Ogier confesses that Selene broke away from him and ran back into the chapter house. Rand is ready to go back for her, but Loial catches his shoulder and tells him that there is nothing they can do. They dash out the door even as someone appears in the alley to spot them.
They cross the hills back towards the Foregate, no Trollocs appearing and the fire dying down behind them, apparently successfully extinguished by the Illuminators. Rand assures Loial that Selene’s actions are not his fault, even as Rand tries to think of how he could help her. They return to The Defender of the Dragonwall without any more difficulty, where Rand finds the innkeeper waiting with another sealed parchment, this time bearing the moon and stars that Selene uses. Rand thanks him and goes upstairs to find Hurin safe and the chest undisturbed. He opens the parchment and finds a letter from Selene.
When I think I know what you are going to do, you do something else. You are a dangerous man. Perhaps it will not be long before we are together again. Think of the Horn. Think of the glory. And think of me, for you are always mine.
Again, it bore no signature but the flowing hand itself.
“Are all women crazy?” Rand demanded of the ceiling. Hurin shrugged. Rand threw himself into the other chair, the one sized for an Ogier; his feet dangled above the floor, but he did not care. He stared at the blanket-covered chest under the edge of Loial’s bed. Think of the glory. “I wish Ingtar would come.”
Poor Rand. Ta’veren pull others around them, but they are also pulled by the Pattern, and it doesn’t help when there are plenty of other schemes and plans to be caught up in besides that of the Wheel of Time itself. His analogy about how he and Hurin and Loial are floundering in deep water is an accurate one, and all-in-all, it’s impressive that they’re still managing to keep afloat.
I don’t believe for a second that Thom Merrilin is going to be able to resist getting involved again. It’s clear enough that it’s not in his nature to stay on the sidelines; no matter how aware he is of the danger, I don’t think he’s going to be able to stop himself. And anyway, he’s probably as caught up in Rand’s ta’veren web as everyone else, whether he knows it or not.
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The Ruin of Kings
I was a little put off by Thom’s patriarchal dismissal of Dena’s desire to be a gleeman and see the world, until I remembered Thom’s own history, and how being a court bard was his true passion. It’s a life, I suspect, he dearly misses. So he isn’t dismissing Dena as unable to handle the life because she’s a woman, he’s wishing for something better for someone he cares about, and probably also is living a little vicariously through the future he imagines she will be able to achieve.
But surely Thom knows better than to think that just because the Aes Sedai aren’t seen to be around, that means their machinations can’t still be at work. Just because he can’t think of a reason Rand might be let go and still be a channeler doesn’t mean there can’t be one, and it’s also possible, as far as Thom could know, that Moiraine might have some other interest in Rand. But of course, he doesn’t want to ask the questions that might lead him to any theories, because he’s trying to stay out of it.
I was moved when Thom gave Rand the replacement flute, though. His affection for the shepherd he was once willing to give his life for is clear, and Rand could use all the affection he can get, even if it doesn’t help him get the Horn back to Fal Dara.
I liked watching Rand try to tackle the same questions that Moiraine was pondering back in Chapter 22, attempting to find a way that the Horn could be related to the Dragon. And I really want to know more about the bit about the herons. I assume the first mark is the sword (hilt, blade and scabbard counting as one) and the burn on his palm is the second. One to set his path (the sword was given to him when he left the Two Rivers, and the void trick being used for fighting has led to Rand discovering how to channel) and the second to mark him as the true Dragon (Ba’alzamon has recognized him as the Dragon Reborn, even if Rand has not accepted it yet). The coat, as much as Rand has passionate feelings about it, is nothing more than Moiraine’s attempt to recognize the importance of herons to Rand, and maybe to give him a symbol for others to recognize, outside of the prophecies.
Thom has a lot of interesting little asides in this chapter; I wasn’t quite sure if he was just complaining that the “players” weren’t very good or if he was literally bemoaning the new invention of actors (but I hope it’s the latter, because that’s hilarious.) His observation that the people of Cairhien will hardly notice the arrival of the Last Battle, and will think that it’s just another part of the Game is another reminder, from someone other than an Aes Sedai, of the problems and degradation of the time in which Rand is living. Like the Whitecloaks who can’t tell good people from Darkfriends, or those Aes Sedai view all men as evil because some may, through no fault of their own, become infected with the taint, this world seems to have lost track of itself and its true path. Or rather, the humans have. The Dark doesn’t seem to have forgotten anything. I suppose vigilance is a hard thing to maintain indefinitely; the Shienarans have the Blight to keep them on their toes but for those who have dwelt in relative safety, remembering what is coming is probably difficult, especially when no one knows when it will come.
If Thom does end up falling back in with Rand, I wonder how much it will take for him to figure out the truth. The old gleeman is pretty shrewd, and I’m not sure he really convinced himself that Rand is as out of it as it appears.
The Darkfriends’ trick of pretending that real Trollocs were puppets was pretty clever, and shows how Fain (the Mordeth side, anyway) can think outside the box better than your average Darkfriend. Maybe he was a bit hasty in killing all those other Darkfriend in the beginning of his journey out of Fal Dara, though; a greater number of humans would be useful in searching a town that Trollocs can’t be caught entering. But Mordeth/Fain’s cockiness is one of the things that lost him the Horn and dagger in the first place, so I guess it’s not a huge surprise.
But Mordeth/Fain (they need a combo name. Like a ship name but for possession. Faindeth? Morfain? Neither of those really roll off the tongue, do they?) isn’t the only clever one. I was very impressed with Rand’s resourcefulness in using the firework to kill the Trollocs. Given what we have learned so far about the danger of over-relying on the One Power, it’s nice for Rand to be reminded that he has skills and intelligence besides the ability to channel. His concern over being used by the Aes Sedai (and others, though he hasn’t realized it yet) won’t abate when he finally accepts his identity as the Dragon—if anything, it will get worse. And I think that remembering his passions and strengths as Rand al’Thor will serve him in very good stead even when he does master the use of saidin.
I was also pleased that he’s getting as annoyed with Selene as I am. It’s very important that Rand is beginning to more consciously recognize her influence on him and engage with it accordingly; Selene is not very subtle but it’s still possible for her to steer Rand in directions he does not wish to go. He may not yet realize who else besides the Aes Sedai wants to manipulate him, but knowing his own mind and freeing himself from distractions is about more than being able to use the void whenever he wishes, and Rand is going to be playing more than just the Game of Houses before he is finished with his destiny.
I’ve been thinking more about the possible dangers of using the void. I’ve touched on this in past weeks, but I’m still thinking that, while the void is useful for being calm and connected in order to perform certain tasks, staying in it all the time could really damage a person’s empathy. The void separates you from your emotions, not just fear or sadness, but any emotion that you might feel, including those towards other people. Stay in it too long, and you might not care anymore how your actions affect others, might lose your desire for connection, understanding, even love. The trait of empathy only exists as long as you have the ability to put yourself in someone else’s shoes, and the void would remove that.
It is often more difficult for wealthy and privileged people to have a healthy amount of empathy, because status elevates you beyond other people and you stop engaging with the problems that the majority faces. It is of course possible to maintain those empathy muscles with some effort and attention, but I think it’s worth noting how this idea plays into the “chosen one” concept that is so favored in epic fantasy. Frodo is not the ring bearer because he is particularly wise or powerful, but rather because he is kind and unambitious (and brave, and other qualities of course, but for the sake of simplicity we’ll stick to the basics). Harry Potter doesn’t defeat Voldemort because he is a super powerful wizard, but rather because of his love for his friends and willingness to sacrifice anything for them. Even Luke Skywalker, though he comes from legacy blood, has more strength from his compassion and innocence as a simple farmboy, and he only defeats evil because he is unwilling to embrace hate and power-lust to do it. I anticipate that, going forward, Rand will become a powerful wielder and swordsman and leader, but that his simple wishes and loves, his remembrance of the Two Rivers and his desire to make a living playing the flute, will serve him as well as those great powers the Dragon commands.
And speaking of empathy, my heart really went out to Loial. Like Perrin, the Ogier is struggling with the fact that he has never been a violent person (he’s mentioned before that Ogier aren’t violent and rarely use weapons) and was forced to kill all the same. But unlike Perrin, Loial isn’t struggling with a fracture in his sense of identity or with the question of whether or not his actions were justified; Loial knows he only did what he had to, and he doesn’t seem to feel that the killing has marred him in some way. But he is able to hold space for grief, for regret that it was necessary, nonetheless. And I think that is very beautiful. Rather than to become numb to it, Loial chooses to believe that even necessary killing as a thing to be sad over, to mourn; it wouldn’t stop him from making the same choices again, but that doesn’t mean he has to like the choice.
I think we could all use a little more Loial in us. And a little more Perrin too, which is awesome because he’s up next week when we tackle Chapter 28. We’ll also get some Whitecloaks in Chapter 29, as well as good old Bayle Domon. The plot thickens, or, as Jordan would put it, there’s “A New Thread in the Pattern.” See you next week!
Sylas K Barrett thinks the Illuminators sound pretty sweet, and would love to see one of their shows.
There may be more to analyze here than you are initially giving Jordan credit for, although you definitely hit the highlights.
Thom’s comments ARE a bit patriarchal. Most patriarchal thoughts come from a place of concern for others, and deciding that you know what is best for them. That’s what a Patriarch is — an older man who is supposed to know what is best for the young people life has granted him authority over. The problem is Thom doesn’t have any inherent authority over Dena, making her dismissal of her wishes a bit problematic. But only a bit, for the mitigating circumstances you mention.
I don’t know that wealthy people lack empathy, but their empathy is definitely tuned to a different frequency. That is true for all groups of people, though. Empathizing with people whose struggles are outside of our own experience is a rare trait regardless of what group someone belongs to.
Thom hates actors. Elayne finds them boring. It’s pretty funny if you ask me.
If Selene is trying to pass as a normal Cairhienin noblewoman, then she’s not doing a good job of it. By appearing and disappearing in ways that not even Aes Sedai are capable of, she’s almost showing off her magic power.
@3 Naw, she’s just dropping hints for the later reveal that she’s actually Batman
Love the Illuminators…
Something that wasn’t lost in the breaking…. and their future. Fun fun!
Thom… one of the best characters… love his story… even if it isn’t front and center…
Poor Loial, He’s having a moral crisis. Rand is like we got to go…I’ve killed a few, maybe six you know…and the thousands you don’t at Tarwin’s Gap… my conscience is clear…. :)
Anything I wanted to say might veer into spoiler territory, so I’ll just say that I really enjoy these rereads (yet again) as well as your musings on Thom, Rand’s nature (and that of my favorite heroes) and yes Selene is annoying as all get out.
FUN FACT. My mom is an uber driver and has never been a big reader (or a reader at all, really) or particularly into fantasy (although she is a Trekkie and also got me into Star Wars). She’s started getting into audio books and went through Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, and she called me recently asking about this book called ‘New Spring’ that the librarian recommended. I told her that while it’s a prequel, she really should listen to the other books in the series first. Long story short, she came to visit us over the weekend, and Great Hunt was queued up in her car. She was not to far off from where this read is (she was at the part where they come onto the big statue being unearthed outside Carhien).
Ah prophecy.. Herons! //So close, and yet so far!!//
@1 – I’m not sure that’s entirely fair. Thom does have an inherent authority over Dena; he’s her teacher and her mentor. He’s under as little obligation to teach her anything as she is to continue in any aspect of the relationship. If he thinks she’s going to be a better court bard than a gleeman (gleewoman?), then he has an absolute right to make that clear to her. More importantly, court bard is a position of immensely more prestige, stability and presumably comes with more pecuniary remuneration from the monarch/lord your serving, versus being a wandering gleeman. I don’t find it problematic to dismiss someone’s wishes on the basis that they can do better.
If Picasso had wanted to be a caricaturist and someone in his life had pushed him towards making culturally relevant art, is that patriarchal? Encouraging someone to be better than they think they can be? Presumably Dena will also be the first ever female court bard as well as gleeman, so it’s not even a matter of making history in that way, either.
@8, Normally I’m with you that patriarchy like racism and sexism can be applied with too broad of a brush on these boards, but I think it’s warranted here. Specifically the lines about “not a fit life for a woman” and “barely a fit life for a man.” It strongly implies that men are tougher and can handle more than women. Take those lines out, and I would say Thom is being wise. But patriarchal thinking is still patriarchy even if the conclusion ends up being the right one.
Now it’s another discussion about whether a female gleeman would have a tougher time as a traveling performer than a man. (How would she have fared with the evil innkeeper Rand and Mat met? What about those farms they needed to stop at where they were attacked/run off in the morning? Would that have been even worse if they were women?)
I love the setup with the Trolloc puppets previously. It’s very effective to take the reader’s sense of security away and ramp up the tension once they pay off.
Like Leigh and some of her followers, I’m skeptical that Dena would really be the first female gleeman ever, in a world where women have diverse professions, including the performing arts. But it’s possible.
Thom managed a flourish with his cloak, despite the fact that he was sitting on it. An impressive feat.
“They will think Tarmon Gai’don is only a ploy in the game.” Too real. Just as people here and now think climate change is only a political ploy. ///Mind you, climate change in this series will be a ploy in the cosmic power struggle.///
“There’s only one trouble men can have from Aes Sedai.” Yeah right.
Yeah, I don’t think an average Darkfriend could have forced Trollocs to (literally) pose as puppets, or forced humans to carry them.
Every time Rand tried to reach the music and light, there was a Trolloc in the way. How rude of them. :-p
On my first read, I enjoyed Selene’s apparent fearlessness and calm in this weird and dangerous situation. A strange, mysterious woman indeed. Now I’m more aware of how unhelpful she’s being, and how she tries to make Rand do things even more reckless than he, walking disaster that he is, would be inclined to do.
///”One who would be great must always be calm.” You’re one to talk, Lanfear. :-p ///
///Heh, Mat once tried to open a firework in the Two Rivers, but didn’t learn from that mistake.///
@9 Remember that, in this world, Thom more likely means that the the life of a gleeman is rough and less suitable for women because they are more important, not because they are less capable. Women are largely held above men in this world, not because they are nessesarily more delicate, but because many feel they are more deserving simply because they are women.
This is still benevolent sexism however, whether right or wrong.
@1, As you may have noticed there is no lack of women thinking they know what’s best for younger men. Don’t blame ‘the patriarchy’ blame human nature.
That said Thom has a right to his opinion on Dena’s best future and the right to tell her what he thinks. What he doesn’t have is the right to force her to do what he wants and there’s no evidence he intends to do that. Which puts him one up on Moiraine, though admittedly the stakes are a lot higher there.
As for Dena // that girl is so dead. The tropes are screaming their heads off. And it’s a damn shame. //
Selene continues to be painfully obvious. And hurray, even Rand is noticing. Thing is you get used to stunning beauty and after a while the effect lessens. Especially if the woman concerned is otherwise irritating as heck.
Is it safe to assume the woman in the window that saw Rand blow up the Trollocs was Alludra?
Sylas: I always absolutely read Thom’s disdain of actors as disdain of the invention of the profession. It’s clear from what he says that this is a new thing and that one should be able to do everything just with the cadence of one’s voice.
Jade Phoenix @13: Maybe, but it reads to me like the woman was one of the many people who were watching from the lighted windows and was just the last one left.
Also, moderators, a quick formatting issue: the paragraph starting “But after Rand has left, Thom doesn’t find it that easy…” should be separate from the block quotes both before and after it; it’s Sylas’s words, not from the text.
(Self-flagged for moderator attention.)
@14 – Fixed, thanks!
“I anticipate that, going forward, Rand will become a powerful wielder and swordsman and leader, but that his simple wishes and loves, his remembrance of the Two Rivers and his desire to make a living playing the flute, will serve him as well as those great powers the Dragon commands.”
//*weeps*//
When I first read the book, I thought the trolloc puppets a genius idea from Fain. //Having the knowledge of what happens later in the series, I no longer believe these trollocs are Fain’s but rather Lanfear’s. She sends trollocs to the Stone to save Rand in an effort to push him towards her. I think she is doing the same thing here, sending in trollocs to get him uncomfortable, and trying to push him to either blow the horn or use the power, but preferably both.//
I sometimes wonder, whether, if Thom had immediately agreed to join Rand, // Dena wouldn’t have needed to die to force him on that path. //
I also sometimes wonder whether this Dena is the same person as the Denna from Patrick Rothfuss’s books. After all, both are young women learning to play musical instruments from older men, and using their looks as part of the deal.
@8:
But that’s not what he does. The subtext seems to be that he will steer her away from it, quietly, without her realizing it. Which is TOTALLY fine, as far as I’m concerned. What push this into patriarchal behavior (and no, @12, I’m certainly not railing against “the Patriarchy”, which is entirely separate from one old man thinking he knows what’s best for the life of one young woman, regardless of what she might think), is the thought process that being a gleeman is no fit job for a woman. That an older man thinks that, and will therefore make a decision for her (which he does, by either lying to her about leaving for Tear in order to keep her there and interested, or simply allowing her to believe that is what he intends for them, as Rand astutely realizes) and manipulate her into what he thinks is the best course of action for her is the definition of patronizing someone.
And as far as this:
This is a position that undermines his “inherent” authority, if she views it that way — that’s why we have ethics against this sort of thing in our own society. Consent becomes a very tricky thing when someone has power and authority over you. She may view him as a mentor and a teacher, but she likely doesn’t view him as having any authority over her, whatsoever. Their relationship as teacher and student is not formal, there are no grades, etc. Thom has no power over her, to fail her, to discipline her, or take away her instruments, or bar her from performing whenever she wants. What Thom has over her is influence, not authority.
And as others have said, there is nothing wrong with him using his influence to steer her to whatever he thinks is best for her. As I said above, that is totally fine. What pushes this into patriarchal territory is the thought that women shouldn’t be gleeman. It doesn’t even matter whether he’s right or wrong, because saying something is patriarchal is not inherently a value judgement. Its merely descriptive. And in this case, the description fits, in my opinion, for the reasons I listed.
Not adding anything significant or important, just pointing out that I have always loved the prophecy about the herons and the dragons. I have reiterated it to myself so many times; it was nice to see it quoted here.
@tbgh (#9)
If the answer to your questions is that yes, those situations would have been worse for a woman, then that’s an argument for the opinion that life as a gleeman is barely fit for a man and not fit for a woman. If you want to argue that it’s sexist to say that men can handle such a life better than women, then you’ll have to claim that a woman would fare just as well as a man in the situations you mentioned. Thus I don’t see how your second paragraph is another discussion than the first. They seem very much like the same discussion to me.
Unfortunately there is a perfectly obvious reason why life on the road could be worse for a woman. She’s somewhat more likely to be raped as well as beaten and robbed.
There is more to this than seems apparent. Tower Law is very specific in cases like this, and we will learn more later. //All men who can channel must be brought to the White Tower and tried before they are gentled. Presumably, they are tested to see if they are indeed the Dragon before sentenced and gentled. The Red Ajah just gentled Owen on the spot and left him to die. This was an extrajudicial sentence that got a lot of people in hot water, though Thom does not know it. //
@17 // I highly doubt that the Tolloc puppets were Lanfear’s idea, as Fain is no longer working for team Dark, but rather team other kind of Dark. Also, it was not Lanfear who ordered the counter Trolloc attack in Tear, it was Semirhage that ordered it at the DO’s direction. //
and
Very astute and can’t wait to see the reactions as we progress towards the middle and end of the series.
//I’ve always wanted a short story of all the things Lanfear was doing that Rand didn’t know about. Unlocking the door, reinforcing the racks of fireworks to prevent them from falling, hiding them by bending the light, probably setting off a bunch of the fireworks and protecting Rand from being hurt. Maybe even cluing in the Trollocs to where they are in order to get Rand to act.//
Also, one fun fact from the original printing of the book. In the hardcover, Thom berates Rand for not keeping the harp in tune while he had it.
It was pointed out by readers that a harp would become damaged if it was kept strung under tension so in later printings it was changed.
My hardcover and paperback from 1990 still have the original wording, but my e-book has the updated wording. I don’t remember exactly when it was changed, but I think it was in the FAQ.
And one final thing. When I pulled out my hardcover for the quote, I was forced to stare at the horrendous rendering of Loial looking like a particularly tall Hobbit. Maybe 5’6″ and weighing 130 lbs soaking wet. Is no one going to comment on this abomination?
It’s not fit for a woman because she’d walk long distances while isolated, and probably raped a billion times.
It’s barely fit for a man because he’s walk long distances while isolated, but he only gets beaten and robbed a billion times.
There are bandits, outlaws, and strangers who might have never have committed a crime before but are tempted by the lack of witnesses in between the cities. The reason women travelled with a male companion was because of these dangers (it’s also why people travelled in caravans: safety in numbers).
Thom’s teaching Dena to throw knives (at least, so I’m guessing. He did have her grab a set of knives, after all). All it takes is a group of bandits with more members than she has knives and she might be their sex slave until she gets too old. The same applies to men (though it’s more likely to be work slavery and not sex slavery for a man).
Or, you know, she could be pampered as a member of the Royal Court, with more luxuries than she could have imagined, and with more wealth than she can spend.
Hmm, I wonder why one is considered a better life?
Sylas, you’ve done a great job reading the books closely and picking up on many elements. But I agree with @23 that this could be your best insight so far:
“And I think that remembering his passions and strengths as Rand al’Thor will serve him in very good stead even when he does master the use of saidin.”
I hope that months from now you remember you said this.
@1: Yes to your whited-out comment. //There’s a spot later in the series that brought on my tears the first time I read it. But, I’m a country boy, so … //
@csanner (#16)
//Well, the Two Rivers values, and specifically realizing that he and the Asha’man weren’t weapons, but ordinary men, did eventually prove vital in Rand defeating Shai’tan. It’s just that it took him until THE END OF BOOK FUCKING TWELVE to realize that, which makes Rand’s story simultaneously one of the best and one of the most aggravating in all of fiction. (And, to be honest, I love it all the more for being as aggravating as it is).
Also, there is Rand’s plans at the very end of the series, of course.//
@jim merrilin / #26
The comment at #8 doesn’t have any whited-out sections. Did you mean someone else?
@jadis666 / #28.
Yep. #16. Older than Thom and I still can’t type numbers
@@@@@ 19 – is the thought process that being a gleeman is no fit job for a woman. That an older man thinks that, and will therefore make a decision for her (which he does, by either lying to her about leaving for Tear in order to keep her there and interested, or simply allowing her to believe that is what he intends for them, as Rand astutely realizes) and manipulate her into what he thinks is the best course of action for her is the definition of patronizing someone.
Would it be patriarchal if a woman was teaching Dena, and thought that? Or patronizing? If the answer is no, then I reject this logic outright. It’s quite obvious that being alone on the road as a gleeman is a dangerous occupation; as we see with Rand and Mat, it’s not just Darkfriends but ordinary people who are willing to engage in robbery and violence against strange people. And even taking into consideration that this is a society coded to believe women have a superior social position, it doesn’t seem sexist on the part of the reader to assume that, like in our world, women are in general more likely to be viewed as targets.
“This is a position that undermines his “inherent” authority, if she views it that way — that’s why we have ethics against this sort of thing in our own society. Consent becomes a very tricky thing when someone has power and authority over you. She may view him as a mentor and a teacher, but she likely doesn’t view him as having any authority over her, whatsoever. Their relationship as teacher and student is not formal, there are no grades, etc. Thom has no power over her, to fail her, to discipline her, or take away her instruments, or bar her from performing whenever she wants. What Thom has over her is influence, not authority.”
Now this is just incorrect. If we had any evidence that Thom was forcing Dena into this relationship, or using force to keep her in it, that would be one thing. But she is his student, and he has no obligation to continue teaching her, so lets keep that in mind as well. If he thinks she should be a court bard, and not a gleeman, he’s more than welcome to make that distinction a condition of their relationship, and she is welcome to leave said relationship if she prefers to be a gleeman. There is no force involved. If Thom wants that relationship to involve him being able to punish her for failure, then that’s okay too, as long as she has the ability and right to terminate the relationship when she feels uncomfortable with what he’s proposing.
She’s a rational actor and pretending as though she’s incapable of making informed decisions denies her agency. Likewise, Thom has his own life and whatever his reasons may be for entering the relationship, she’s appealing to him to help her develop skills which she cannot do on her own, and he’s under no obligation to continue to mentor her. He can set whatever parameters around their relationship he wants, as long as he allows her to leave.
In our world, countless women voluntarily did/do jobs inherently more difficult and dangerous for them than for men, physically and/or socially. I can understand Thom seeking to dissuade Dena from trying to be a gleeman, but I can’t believe that no other woman has ever made that attempt.
@30:
I’m sorry that you reject it outright, but the “pat” in patron, patronize, and patriarch literally means “father”, so I outright reject your rejection.
Thom being an older man is what makes it “patriarchal,” because that’s what the word means. If it was an older woman who was acting like this, or said that, the proper term is “matriarchal.”
And you really need to read my posts more carefully. I’m not remotely arguing that Thom is being “sexist”, people do use “patriarchal” to imply sexism, but that’s not what the word means, and I was very clear I wasn’t using the term to assess a value judgement on Thom’s actions here.
That’s why I said from the beginning that it was only a “little” patriarchal, because it doesn’t carry much in the way of sexist overtones. Just the barest hint.
A man can be patriarchal with another man as well. It’s about positioning yourself as a man of authority because of your age and experience, regardless of the sex of the younger person you are speaking with. Sometimes (often), it warranted. Other times, it’s “patriarchal bullshit” as the saying goes.
As far as the second part of your comment, I don’t even know where to start. I didn’t remotely imply that Thom was forcing Dena into a relationship. Wow. There’s really no point in responding to the rest of it, since the begining was so far off the mark.
I wonder if Thom would steer a promising young man towards Court Bard rather than Gleeman? I suspect he would. He is in a position to make an informed judgement on the comparative dangers and advantages of the two career tracks.
… and cue the endless Patriarchy arguments over Thom and Dena. I don’t recall any moans about the Matriarchy when Rand gets unwanted guidance from Moiraine and Siuan and Verin and Liandrin and Selene and Egwene and Elayne and pretty much every woman he meets except for Else Grinwell… and even she would have been happy to guide him to her bed. And this in a world which is set up as a Matriarchy.
Reading the book through a narrow ideological lens twists the characters into caricatures. Thom loves Dena. His treatment of her is forged by this love, not by a social construct. He teaches her what he knows to help her fulfill her dream. He is patronizing towards her because he has forty years’ experience which she lacks. It would be callous and cruel to let her go out into the world to face dangers of which she knows nothing. That’s like an Amyrlin sending out a couple of Accepted to hunt the Black Ajah. If he did that to a woman he loved, he would be a sociopath.
25. Creative Name
Agreed that Randland is not a place for women to travel long distances alone and by foot. Rape is certainly a threat more relevant to women than men. But there is another consideration – If she becomes a gleewoman on the road, it means that at some point she will have to choose between giving up her dream and raising a family. If she’s a court bard, not so much. Of course, she might find a Randland farmer who embraces all the ideals of 20th-century feminism, but Thom’s not counting on it.
18. robertstadler
Very much agree with your first whited-out line. The Wheel turns without mercy.
@34 – I honestly laughed out loud at // “That’s like an Amyrlin sending out a couple of Accepted to hunt the Black Ajah”.// I see what you did there ;)
Honestly, it never even occurred to me to try to delve into Thom’s attitudes so deeply. As others have pointed out, he actually loves and cares for Dena so he wants the best for her. And yes, he may have a different idea of what that is than she does (given his perspective/experiences – and who knows, maybe he’s right and able to take the long view) but that’s something that all people in close relationships deal with. We naturally want our beloved to avoid pain and have a hard time watching them make what we perceive as mistakes, and occasionally project our own desires on to them. It’s a flawed human behavior, sure, but I never got the impression that Thom would actively prevent her from being a gleeman if that’s what she wants – but he does seem to think she can and should shoot even higher.
The life of a travelling gleeman probably is, given Randland’s circumstances, objectively a bit more difficult as a woman. Jordan doesn’t really play up rape/gang rape in his works – we know it happens in a few scenarios, but I don’t know that Dena would be prey to the same kind of damage a lone woman in Game of Thrones would, for example – but even things like dealing with menstruation, etc would probably be trickier to deal with. There is probably a little bit of internalized, ‘women are weaker’ ideas going on here – but he might also be using that to hide behind as it’s really that he doesn’t want to see a woman he loves go through such a hard life. But I still don’t think he would actively stop her.
JonathanLevy@34:
I don’t remember a single commenter on this thread that has argued that Thom was doing something wrong or icky. For myself, I merely pointed out that the it was a “bit” patriarchal, when the OP didn’t want to call it that exactly, because that’s literally the definition of the word patriarchal. The word fits the scene. Equating patriarchal with sexist is a false equivalency, and falls under the label “not my problem.”
And, again, being “patriarchal” doesn’t imply that a “Patriarchy” is at work. No one is implying that Thom is participating in a system designed to keep women from rising above their stations. That would be ludicrous given that his express desire is for her to become a court bard, which is about as high as a commoner could rise (other than Rand, of course).
That doesn’t mean that he isn’t being patriarchal though. He is, by definition stronger than the complete craziness of how we choose to misuse words in our culture today.
35. Lisamarie
:D :D :D
I was hoping someone would! <evil cackle>
36. Anthony Pero
It seems to me that the thread is dominated by this discussion. But this is a matter of perspective – I do accept that someone else might read the thread and hardly notice the subject.
That said, I cannot dissociate the word ‘Patriarchy’ from the concept of a political or social system. It shares the same “archy” as Matriarchy, Monarchy, oligarchy, and probably also Archon, which wiki tells me was the title of the nine chief magistrates of ancient Athens. It does not seem to me to be the right word to describe an individual case of an older man guiding a youngster.
35. Lisamarie (again)
I think Jordan manages to suggest so much, using just a few words. It’s part of the richness of the tapestry he wove, that a scene of a few lines between secondary and tertiary characters still contains this depth.
Thom is conflicted. He feels the call to adventure, but last time it got him into combat with a Fade and a permanent limp. Running around as a gleeman is getting difficult for him. And he’s getting lonely, too. But he finds this girl. She’s a prodigy. She admires him for his skill, and his wit. And she’s young, and pretty. They become lovers. He could be happy, winding out his last years with her. If she can reconcile herself to being a court bard, and if he can reconcile himself to a sedentary life.
On the other hand, he knows it’s not going to work. Marry her? In a year or two she’ll learn everything he knows, and his attraction will fade. He’ll just be that old man who helped her career get started, and some young fellow will catch her eye. If they’re married, it will put her in an impossible position. Better to keep a way out for her. And what if there are children? She’ll be raising them alone, soon enough, given his age. He can’t quite bring himself to accept this, so he skirts around it in his own mind. “She’ll never be a bard with my past hanging around her neck”. That might be true in one or two cities. There are a dozen others where that would make no difference at all. It’s an excuse. Much as he desires her, he foresees that she will leave him, and arranges a way for her to do so.
Then comes along Rand, and the whole delicate balance becomes a whirlpool. Maybe there’s still enough time for one last adventure. And that’s without bringing the Ta’veren effect into the equation, or the mention of Moiraine’s name.
Thom is at this point in his life experienced enough to know love can end and however real and strong one’s feelings of the moment some relationships just aren’t permanent. He puts his relationship with Dena in that category. She’s young and he’s old, eventually his desire for peace and stability is going to collide with her yearning for adventure. Best they are able to part amicably when that time comes with no complicating commitment.
He is also definitely using her as an excuse to refuse The Call. I don’t want to. And anyway there’s Dena. I got a responsibility here. Go away Rand. // Girl is SO doomed.//
Well, normally I would weigh in heavily for not making Thom a bad guy and stuff. But I’m gonna concentrate on my deeper feelings here: Why interpret Thoms actions here as control? People can have an opinion about what they want for other people, and try to get them there. Even without age difference, experience, gender issues. I don’t see a reason to get all worked up about it. This doesn’t seem like a point worthy of big discussion.
If Dena doesn’t want to be a court bard, and Thom doesn’t let up, she is free to leave him, or just do what she wants.
Thom certainly wants to have a nice life with Dena, and not be involved with Aes Sedai plots. And seeing as he doesn’t really know what is happening, Tarmon Gaidon coming, he is entitled to that, I think. Not very gracious to Rand, who could use help, or at least companionship, but in normal circumstances not worth condemning. Not everybody can be like Lan or the Aiel, duty and all the rest.
Late to the Thom/Dena argument party! I don’t actually agree with the posters citing rape as the main reason why a career on the road is worse for a woman than a man. In the real world, that’s definitely a consideration. But I’m in agreement with Leigh on this point: Jordan isn’t just glossing over rape. There is, by design, significantly less risk of rape for women in this world than in our world. We don’t see female travelers having the same degree of fear of rape as they would in a culturally equivalent point in our world. And this fits in very well with the worldbuilding. Real-world crime statistics show that male sexual predators commonly target women who they believe are physically weak and will not fight back. Translate that to Randland, where there is a low but nonzero chance that a given woman is a wilder. Therefore, you’ve introduced a strand into the culture where “strength” in a woman cannot be accurately judged from her size and body language alone. Add in the tendency we’ve seen in the male characters to conflate “Aes Sedai” with the idea of femininity specifically, and I think you plausibly have a culture in which rape is less common than in our own early modern world, and women are therefore comfortable traveling alone (Else) or in quite small groups–because men are, deep down, afraid that they might accidentally target a woman who can channel. Note that, at this point of reading, the credible threats of sexual violence have come from male Forsaken or from Myrddraal, not average humans. //We eventually see some aberrations–Valda, Hanlon, the Shaido–but they turn up so late and are so stomach-turning that I read them as in-world aberrations that the characters don’t consider normal.//
Put this together with //the repeated theme that in this world, men are at significant risk for rape or for offenses against their autonomy that are specifically considered to be tantamount to rape, such as forced bonding. That’s my argument that the theme of “inverted oppressive patriarchy” is turned on its head so far that it extends to equalizing or reversing the gender imbalance in the risk of suffering rape (despite Jordan hopelessly flubbing the ending of the Mat/Tylin mess.//
@37:
The problem seems to lie in an inability to disassociate the word “Patriarchy” from the word I’m actually using (I have never used the word “Patriarchy” to describe what Thom is saying here): patriarchal. A single, solitary older man can be “patriarchal” without implying a broader “patriarchy” at play.
At this point, I’m just going to have to excuse myself from the discussion. Its gotten absurd, from my point of view.
Does anybody else suddenly find themselves having a Cosby moment, with images of Egwene grabbing Rand’s lip and screaming at him “I WANT MORFAIN!!!!”
Hey. Very late to the party but there’s something that hasn’t been brought up in the discussion that I want to mention. Who decides (both in a real world sense and in a in-story sense) what makes a “better” life for someone. Because it seems to me that different people have a different idea of what that means